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Racism and Sexism in Business (And Society)
I was out with Jack Yan last night and enjoyed a great night with someone who talks as much as me (woopee!).
One topic of conversation was how we have both dealt with either sexism or racism while doing business. Jack mentioned a recent cover of Vogue magazine, and I have since hunted down his blog post on the topic. Here is the offending cover:
What initially struck me as interesting, was the comment written by an anonymous writer and how we all view society from the background we have. I agreed with the comment writer:
“More sexist really. The girl looks helpless. Why can’t she be in her sweats flexing her muscles?”
But that is because with my pale skin, I have never been face with racism towards me, but I have felt offense at the times women are portrayed as wimpy little idiots. It sounds uptight but I have witnessed the fury of guys who are labeled as a ‘wimp’ or a ‘girl’ (as clearly they are the same thing) and I wonder if even that gives them the faintest idea of what it feels like for weakness to be not a downfall but an expectation.
Jack, being a Chinese male in New Zealand has probably never encountered sexism, but has encountered racism… So he sees a picture that by all accounts seems to be summed up as a take on King Kong, which when you do actually look at it from that angle, makes a lot of sense and makes for a very disturbing image.
What I find most interesting with the situation is our current relaxed approach to stereotypes. My friends have started to call me a rampant feminist because the more I experience of the world, the more I notice those tiny subtle expectations that people place on you because of your race or gender. When you are aware of them, they are everywhere and are very offensive.
Maybe the intent of the Vogue Cover was purely to portray a ‘fun picture’. But the fact of the matter is all men, in this society were NOT created equal, and in that famous phrase, women aren’t even mentioned. And until the day we can say those words and actually mean them, you don’t have the right to casually promote racial and sex stereotypes and laugh it off as just a bit of fun or to say you didn’t mean it like that.
How do you know you didn’t mean it like that? You grew up in a society that inundates you with messages that it is indeed like that. Maybe what you really mean is that, on the surface, you believe that everyone is equal, but you have never thought to delve under the cover and explore what equality really means and how harmful your version of it can be.
Hello, my name is Natalie, I have a business called 
April 11th, 2008 at 4:08 pm
I don’t mean to undermine what you just said, but I think every group of people can claim some degree of injustice against them.
I’m a middle-class white male. Whilst at university my peers included females and maori. It felt like an utter slap in the face to search for scholarships only to find that there were scholarships for these groups but not for middle-class white males.
I don’t want a middle-class white male scholarship just for me (imagine the outrage that’ll create!!), but I want the opportunity for an equal playing field.
Sure, maybe society has these ingrained stereotypes, but positive reinforcement intended to help remove these stereotypes can lead to just as much injustice.
Please be more careful when blaming people such as me for societies problems. I’m sure the Maori and female students that received the scholarships I couldn’t even apply for didn’t feel sorry for me. I wonder whether you feel these people are entitled to the scholarships any more than any other student (be it any natively born male, irrespective of their race)?
Jonathan.
April 11th, 2008 at 4:49 pm
This is an extremely hard issue to deal with and I agree that every person in this world faces injustice.
I agree that our schooling system treats students unequally, and I know many people who feel the same injustice at not being able to apply for certain scholarships and not being able to enter womens only rooms and I know white males these days tend to feel a little hard done by (after all YOU didn’t create the problem!)
I suppose my point is that while everyone experiences a certain amount of injustice, it is the degrees that vastly differ and I find it difficult (as I’m sure those scholarship students you mentioned did) to feel sorry for white males and their position. And this is not to say that is the same thing as blaming you, it’s just that until you know what it’s like to be anything other than a white male, you may find it extremely difficult to see exactly what you get because of it. Basically I’m sure those who received scholarships would gladly give them up to be treated in the same way as you do in life.
You may not be able to receive a womans only scholarship, and yes, for you that IS unfair, but I am yet to meet someone who has a better answer than trying to undo centuries of harm by giving minorities and those who have kind of been screwed over, an extra step up. I would, however love to hear one.
But I do think we are on the same page because all I was saying in this post is that the negative REINFORCEMENT needs to stop. Maybe when we stop getting these messages bombarding us, the very people who now need those scholarships you speak of will not be in the same boat they are currently in and therefore the need for them (or another alternative) will disappear.
This is not about revenge, it’s about the best way to bring the rest of the world up to the same standard and I’m not saying we currently have the right answers and those are that white males have to suffer, but I do think that the Vogue Cover pictured IS a good example of just WHY the world is in a position where certain people actually need more help to counteract the other things that cut them down.
April 11th, 2008 at 11:31 pm
Just on the cover of the magazine…. it’s not just portraying a black man and a white female, but sports people and models (in which case the picture seems rather fiting…). I do realise it’s not the ideal picture… but perhaps people are a bit too quick to jump to conclusions? The modeling industry in itself has a lot to answer for – putting a muscley woman on the cover would not have represented the story at all!
April 12th, 2008 at 2:50 am
Thank you for the mention, and how come I don’t get commenters as civilized as yours?
April 12th, 2008 at 1:22 pm
The thing is, I would be amazed if that Vogue cover did not have at least one female somewhere in the hierarchy who didn’t have the chance to review and approve the photo. For it to be unfair and a negative reinforcement of a stereotype which you disagree with, it would have to be unfair to many (if not most) members of the sex/race for which it applies. Given that we can assume that somewhere a women was given the opportunity to review and give a go/no-go decision on this image, and it still made it through, it is interesting to think what she was thinking (I presume your argument would be ‘money’ – but keep reading).
In addition, I presume (having no interest in Vogue at all) that it is targeted towards women. I also presume Vogue have been creating magazines for a long time, and from a brief Google search, have been displaying women in this light for just as long. I wouldn’t be surprised to hear the editor of Vogue is a woman.
Could it be feasible that some women are just as culpable as the men you blame in your original post? Whether they just don’t see the stereotypes you mention, or whether they just choose to ignore them, it doesn’t really matter, as the flipside of the coin is that women are the people buying this magazine (I presume).
You may feel injustice from the men in the world, but I think we’re a convenient scapegoat for today’s situation – although fair enough regarding men in the past – but once again, that’s our past generations, and men today are not like that I would argue.
Jonathan.
April 13th, 2008 at 4:49 pm
Hey Saree,
I agree, I find this a fascinating picture because I think you could be entirely right (and they COULD be right when they say it was just a nice picture) BUT because of the way society is, a nice picture to some is still offensive to others. I wonder if they should just get over it, or because society is in this boat, we automatically lose the right to do stuff like this.
Jack,
Ha ha, yeah we’re a nice bunch here :)
Jonathan,
I think it’s interesting that you think I’m blaming men, in both your comments you ASSUME that’s what I’m doing. Which is funny because when I wrote the post I assumed Vogue HAD a female editor who ok’d it and I wasn’t actually thinking about this being a simple male vs female issue at all.
If we want to continue discussing the female route and it being ok simply because a female ok’d it, I could point out all the female strippers and prostitutes and bikini models and so on and so forth, who have absolutely no PROBLEM with this stuff. That still doesn’t make it ok. Nor does the fact that Vogue has a large female readership make the way they portray women ok.
What I find frustrating about this topic and why I hardly ever mention it and have NEVER written a full post on it before and published it (there are several unpublished!!) is because I know precisely the reaction I will get. As soon as you write any of this stuff, you get called over dramatic and a man hater and accused of blaming todays men for problems that have occurred in the past. I feel like I deliberately didn’t do the latter because I don’t believe it’s true, the first part, I am happy to accept because I think these days there is a tendency to UNDER dramatise stuff with the hope that you wont look like an uptight, politically correct idiot.
“You may feel injustice from the men in the world, but I think we’re a convenient scapegoat for today’s situation”
Just a couple of questions:
Have you been repeatedly been ignored or called ‘darling’ and dismissed as a secretary by people of the opposite gender while conducting business meetings for a company you own?
Have you ever walked down the street in business clothes and had men leer at you out their car windows and wolf whistle at you or make other rude remarks and you literally start to feel like a deer in the spotlights and horrified that despite all you think you have achieved, to them you are simply a lump of meat?
I could give you a hundred more examples and many far worse ones that I have repeatedly encountered or watched other women try to get through. I deliberately DON’T write about those things because I agree with you that YOU are not part of the problem, the very fact that you take the time to write is something I’m awfully grateful for. However you would be surprised how many men still behave like this all the time and how much it actually wears you down some times and how, after experiencing some things over and over again, something as simple as a not-very-well-thought-out magazine cover has the power to make you offended.
If I could answer no to the questions I asked you and I hadn’t gone through the other stuff, I don’t think I would have even picked up ANY negative vibes.
And that was precisely my point. On its own, the cover is harmless. In this society, it may not be.
April 13th, 2008 at 7:19 pm
Hey,
Fair enough on the questions you ask regarding some men being meat-heads, I can understand where you are coming from (although I can’t say I’ve ever experienced similar obviously). I can’t imagine it would be enjoyable. But to be fair, most men would never do that – it’s the meat-heads that do it, and they probably ruin it for the lot. I honestly would happily engage a female just as equally as a male, or an asian, african, indian.
I actually quite frequently even get into debates with my Christian friends (and I know I’m kind of getting distracted here). I myself am a non-practising Christian, but there are some things I don’t agree with, such as my God being the ‘One True God’. I would happily allow any person to have their own religious beliefs, and I would never openly or secretly state that their belief is any more right or wrong than my own. As far as I’m concerned everyone’s God is just as real as mine, and the important thing is that everyone use their God to better their lives and the lives of the people around them. Even people with no God should be treated equally. Each to their own. This really annoys the people who are more close minded, but I would suggest even from your comments that either you agree with what I just said, or that you will be persecuting people based on their religious beliefs.
Anyway, despite your claims about you not specifically targeting men, it seems quite apparent that you apportion most of the blame on males. Like I said, and like I think you agree with, many women also help with these stereotypes.
So onto the real question: How can we improve things, preferably without positive reinforcement (as that just benefits one group to the detriment of other groups, as per my first comment). I honestly don’t have a suggestion – but I would gladly hear yours.
A couple points/assumptions:
* I would say that unfortunately meat-heads (as I affectionately refer to them as) are here to stay. They are probably one of your major ‘pain points’.
* The ‘educated male’, as I’ll call them, probably aren’t a pain point for women at all. I would say this is a half-truth, as it assumes women aren’t subjected to any glass-ceiling effects in business, for example. From my perspective, this is becoming more and more unlikely, given the position of people such as Helen Clark, Teresa Gattung (spelling error there – ex-CEO of Telecom anyway), among others. A little more recently, people are happy to vote for Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama in the US presidential elections. I don’t think present-day males have any issue with this situation continuing – the best __person__ for the job.
* The female editor of vogue has almost certainly been subject to the same actions you ask about in your last comment, yet she still continues to stereotype women the way she does. I’m still a little confused about that (and your response), but lets assume it’s just a money thing.
Sorry, had to cut this comment short (so it may come off sounding a bit like a rambling mess). Hopefully it’s food for thought, and gives you something to reply to me with. Please don’t take anything I say personally, as I’m only expressing my views, and I do share your sentiments for the most part (I tend to play devils advocate to get a discussion going). I would simply like to see things improve, without apportioning blame if at all possible.
Jonathan.
April 15th, 2008 at 7:50 pm
Hey Jonathan,
I’ve thought about your comments a lot and half wrote a final one the other day, but wanted to make sure I had it right.
I understand what you mean, and I have decided that I have faced fairly extreme examples of sexism, which have very much influenced my opinion… And which make this conversation very hard for me.
“But to be fair, most men would never do that” The thing is, I DISAGREE with this comment. What is MOST men? Are you saying that incidences of sexism are so few and far between that they are mere annoyances rather than something that would shape someones life?
The reason I disagree is because EVERY woman I know has experienced mild to severe cases of sexism. EVERY ONE OF US. These have come from friends, boyfriends, colleagues, strangers and people, like you, who truly believe they think women are equal. They REALLY do. If you asked them (and I have asked many men) they basically repeat your arguments verbatim. They really don’t see an inequality but they do enforce it. (and I’m not saying you do, I’m saying men who say the same arguments as you)
“given the position of people such as Helen Clark, Teresa Gattung (spelling error there – ex-CEO of Telecom anyway), among others. A little more recently, people are happy to vote for Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama in the US presidential elections. I don’t think present-day males have any issue with this situation continuing – the best __person__ for the job.”
All I can say to this comment that fits in here is:
* Why then, do women only earn 80% of what men do in New Zealand, and at the current rate of increase will only expect to reach the same rate after 2050?
* How often in New Zealand Newspapers, has the focus been on our female leaders feminist qualities (or lack thereof) than her professional judgement? And how much have they had to sacrifice to reach this position? Virtually none of our female leaders have families and if their husbands are happy to sit in the background, they get publically mocked and questioned for it.
If I’d never seen a picture Hillary Clinton, I’d know that in the past, she was “A babe”. If I’d never seen a picture of Barack Obama, I’d know he was black. If I’d never seen a picture of George Bush, I would have no idea what he looks like.
If you can honestly say you have never laughed or commented on Helen Clarke’s looks or feminity, I believe you would be in a tiny minority of men. If you can’t then I’d say you are in the same boat as all other ‘educated males’ you talk about, and while you see an equal world, your version of equality is a little skewed (which is not your fault, it’s just that most men, even the most well-intending, are still, on occasion, sexist).
I understand what you mean about not appointing blame, but the one argument that frustrates me from men is “Don’t blame us, just tell us a solution.” As always, the first step to solving the problem, is accepting it’s a problem, and when men tell me there is no problem or that the problem is exaggerated, I feel like we aren’t even ready to start tackling what needs to be done.
I know a large part of the solution can only come from females (the more Helen Clarkes etc we get the better)… But please do not assume because they got there, it was just as easy for them as it is for a man, and it wont be for many more years.
This post was all about negative reinforcement, the pinching girls bottoms at bars, wolf whistling at them, questioning their femininity first and their expertise second, creating work environments that force women to act like men (i.e women are LESS likely to ask for payrises, so they just don’t get them, women are MORE likely to underestimate their skills so get hired in lower positions), NOT putting stereotypical pictures on magazine covers (even if women are currently happy to buy them)…
So my solution is to not do it.
Positive reinforcement is a whole other topic, as I suspect, is how unequal we really are. And while I have this conversation regularly, it’s not something I really wanted to delve right into here. The issue gets too heated, the subtleties are too hard to explain and sometimes our worldviews are so vastly different that it is hard to find common ground.
I suppose what I have learned from this is:
1. Your experiences shape your view on the world so much that 3 different people can view one picture but see three different things.
2. I am ever so pleased I didn’t post the article I was originally going to post (this was a bit of a testing ground).
3. And on a personal level. It’s time to forget the past.
I have really enjoyed talking to you and do think we are on the same page most of the time, but the details we may never agree on.